RS: I am interested in the rehang and what sort of things you are putting up.

RN: We had to do some major negotiations, because we already had a schedule for this year. We had quite a few football related exhibitions that were planned. Normally, we plan eighteen months ahead. Then I just kind of started asking some questions about if this appropriate. What are our particularities and strengths? What is it that we have that is unique to this country? Who are our visitors going to be? What should we be focusing on? Out of those questions arose the idea to use this opportunity through art to give people an insight of who we are as a nation. And that's our business here. I think that South African art has so much to offer. And so I bounced the idea, and we scrapped those exhibitions we had planned and programmed the three big exhibitions we had, the Strengths and Convictions, the Dada South? and the Preller exhibition, to all end in February and we started working on this show. With the short time available we have also managed to visit some of the other collections around the country. Joburg, Pretoria, Durban and Pietermaritzburg, those are the big four outside of Cape Town.

RS: So this rehang isn't only of the permanent collection? I noticed the Abe Bailey Collection and those things that were on permanent display...

RN: For about 60 years...

RS: …Have been taken down. Is there going to be a new permanent display?

RN: This show will be on for 6 months. I think 50-60% will be from our permanent collection. It is also costly to insure works that come from the outside. Although the national gallery collection represents artists from around the country there is definitely a Cape Town bias. So to fill those gaps we have loaned works from outside of Cape Town. It won’t be permanent. Nothing in life is permanent. Not even the Abe Bailey Collection. But it will be on for a substantial period of time. Using the whole gallery for 6 months for one major show is quite a long time.
For the new show we are looking at the last hundred years or so. The title is 1910 to 2010: From Pierneef to Gugulective. The exhibition starts when South African art started to articulate a modern identity, specific to here as opposed to the same colonial stuff that was going on everywhere. It is about looking at the particular nature of South African from when it started to differentiate itself to other colonial situations and up to the very contemporary.

RS: It’s a long time, a hundred years. I know there is a whole gallery, but there still must be a tough selection process.

RN: We are looking at the transition from the colonial to articulating an own identity in the early Modernists as the beginning. Looking at how white artists represented life here and simultaneously how black artists saw the situation – Rorkes Drift, Polly Street, etc. And of course the art of resistance, from the 60s to the 80s, but we are looking to have a little bit of fun working on that. And coming more into the contemporary, the change-over, art from the so-called townships and where we are now. We hope to give a broad overview.

RS: It’s quite a broad history of SA art but it’s not an alternative history by any means?

RN: I think what’s important is that a person walking through the show would get quite a good understanding of what South African art is about. What the country is about. Not just Cape Town. Geographically and culturally, they should get the sense of what the country is about. I think with the kind of loans coming in one can expect to see a number of works unfamiliar to Cape Town audiences. You will have to judge that for yourself when the show opens.

RS: So for a foreign visitor?

RN: Foreign visitors, yes. But also in terms of local visitors. We are trying not to show works by artists in our collection that have been seen a lot. We are borrowing quite special works form other collections by those artists. Even our local audiences will see something new, something fresh, including work by known artists. I think that was what was particularly interesting about going to JAG, there is a very strong collection of black artists early on, 40s, 60s. Durban and Pietermaritzburg were just amazing. Some of the artists there are just not reflected in the collections here. And these art strong artists who were working for 30, 40 years, but just never appeared on the national scene. So there will definitely be lots of stuff for South African audiences. I think it will be an education for many people.
When we put themes for this show together, someone suggested we compare this to what schools are doing. There were lots of overlaps. I think its an unprecedented opportunity for people studying art at school level and at university to really grapple with South African art historically. So it is also relevant to our younger audiences.

RS: Has this inspired you to rectify your collection, of ISANG, to reflect more of the country?

RN: I identified that quite early on, and traveling around the country seeing other collections has been proof of that. I traveled with Joe Dolby who has been at the National Gallery fro 30 years and has a wealth of experience. He was totally in awe of some the stuff we saw. It shows up our collection, that we have to borrow. We are looking at addressing that, also importantly in the now. It’s a two-fold agenda: Historically, there are imbalances, geographically. And in the now we need to be looking nationally so that in 20 years time, our collection for this period is reflective of what was happening in the country.

RS: There was a bit of a scandal about removing the Abe Bailey Collection…

RN: An Art Times scandal…

RS: Was there some resistance to removing the Collection?

RN: It’s the first time this has happened for 60 years. I think the condition is that at least some of the Abe Bailey is on show. And it has always been a feature. I think the Abe Bailey has received more exposure than any artist, than any work over this period. This has really had unprecedented benefit for the Abe Bailey collection.

RS: Some of this rehang has got to do with the World Cup. But do people come to look at art during that period.

RN: I think it can only add to the potential visitor we might have. There have been some reports of people who went to Germany that there was a lot of preparation but not as many people visited the museums as was expected. I think Cape Town lends itself to this, the location, some of the social history museums. If I was a visitor I would venture out and check what else is happening. If they do, they will not be disappointed.

RS: I wanted to ask you about the Lulu Xingwana scandal. What do you feel about the Department of Arts and Culture and the tack they are taking, especially towards visual art which, I feel often falls off their wagon?

RN:I think what happened is very unfortunate. It is completely out of sync of where we see ourselves as a country. In terms of gay marriages, we are setting the path and leading the way. There are only five or six countries in the world that have done that. Then when you hear of something like this then it is like a flashback to a really conservative past. I think the art gallery and the art space and the artists have a role (and have always played that role), of pushing the boundaries, of reflecting society and of questioning things. That’s not going to change. If the way the media reported the story is true, I think that is a unfortunate and very conservative stance and totally out of sync with the progressive constitution we have and where we should be heading.